[dubigrasu]

PCLinuxOS user since Big Daddy (2006), joined the forum in 2007 and banned in 2010.

[melodie]

PCLinuxOS user since Big Daddy (2006), joined the forum in 2007 and banned in 2010.

The present forum would be the way out to other "linux countries" ?
And this present thread begins to look like a special meeting.

(Thinking... ) Fun, linuxgator never started a chan at freenode ?

[wdm]

PCLinuxOS user since Big Daddy (2006), joined the forum in 2007 and banned in 2010.

That's about the same time I started with PCLOS. The forum had a draconian rep even back then. I sometimes search there for info when I have a problem, but seldom post anything.
I still think PCLOS is the best distro for me. The only other I use now is puppy.

[Taco.22]

Looks the final nail in the coffin for OB at PCLOS - http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,105725.msg903424.html#msg903424
Not to mention the not so subtle "let's not speak ill of the dead but..."

It's a real shame - Bonsai was a great construction platform and is what I built my Astronomy Edition on. Hope it all finds a new home soon.
Unfortunately for PCLOS (as if they care!) for me no OB means no PCLOS, partly because of the loss of options, but also because of the cavalier treatment of those who worked really hard in the best interests of all.

[melodie]

Looks the final nail in the coffin for OB at PCLOS - http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,105725.msg903424.html#msg903424
Not to mention the not so subtle "let's not speak ill of the dead but..."

Hi,
I don't find that part ? But I find this:

And, she added custom packages and configurations that are not maintained, as well as using zram.

Impossible, I don't know how to package, I have never learned. Except very recently, when I used 3 days and one or two nights to learn how to package for Debian and Ubuntu. Now there is a openbox-menu package on a PPA I opened at Launchpad (and one waiting for Debian dev sponsor at Debian Mentors).

About configurations, the only custom config is for zram because no one would be willing to package compcache and it was useful for installing on old machines mainly. Other custum configurations have been packaged by Leiche and are available as "openbox-menu-configurations" (and very outdated, because I brought lot's of improvements since).

It's a real shame - Bonsai was a great construction platform and is what I built my Astronomy Edition on. Hope it all finds a new home soon.

This is worked on. In the meanwhile Bonsai can still be used, as long as openbox is available at the distribution. openbox-menu has had a new version recently, btw (at the site of the project on code google).

Unfortunately for PCLOS (as if they care!) for me no OB means no PCLOS, partly because of the loss of options, but also because of the cavalier treatment of those who worked really hard in the best interests of all.

(no comment on that last one)


I will answer here about the problem met by pclinmike, and also about what djohnston said.

pclinmike as many other persons meet with issues which have been reported regarding pcmanfm. I am a member of the lxde mailing list, where the devs from different distributions are interacting with pcman, the mail developer of the Lxde project.

have been reported so far:
* crashes when un mounting a peripheral, be it inside as a logical volume, or outside, as a usb stick;
* icons disappearance in various circumstances;
* about 80 more bugs;

All this is under heavy work now, and a new pacmanfm will be out soon, maybe a matter of a few more weeks.

What solution can be brought to PCLinuxOS pcmanfm users for this ? Very simple, I have spared all the former pcmanfm version 0.9.9-3 which was working well and this is the one I use in my install. I am not selfish you know, I have put it online for anyone wishing to reinstall it.

You can find all the rpms of that one version here:
http://tyruiop.eu/~melodie/Downloads/PC ... 3pclos2011

The first line is a tarball containing the other packages listed under.

The only two which don't need being installed are the 2 devel packages, so they should be removed from the directory where the other ones will be, before invoking "rpm -Uvh *.rpm".

I have no means to tell pclinmike to try it. He is not registered here for example.

Please take note : when we saw the crashes pcmanfm was producing, a few months back, some said "it is normal behavior, work finished, file manager closes". This is imho pure nonsense, a program does not close by itself, it has no judgment and is not supposed to take decisions. pcmanfm update has been one of the rare which didn't go through the testing section before being delivered. I found and still find that a bit strange.

My action to make pcmanfm progress in the lxde project has been this one: first a full bug report at the pcman's bugzilla place, then after a while noticing that nothing was going on at the mailing list of lxde, I sent a post there to raise the problem. After my post several persons sent an answer confirming my say ; then pcman said he'd work on it and several people joined him to send patches, solve bugs...

pcman has also worked hard with his team to make the other components progress. For those who might be interested asking for updates, you can see the new versions at the lxde blog:
http://blog.lxde.org

Recent Posts
LXMusic 0.4.5 released!
menu-cache 0.3.3 released!
LXAppearance 0.5.2 released!
LXInput 0.3.2 released!
LXPanel 0.5.9 released!

References on the pcmanfm bugzilla, for who might be curious:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_i ... tid=801864

down the page you can read:
1 - 25 of 553 Results

Have some forgotten that a version number "0.xxx" is not considered stable ?

The next one might be considered stable, with the first 1.xx number. Up to now pcman has corrected about 80 bugs or more. Another solution to fix the problem in the distribution might be to ask for a test version compiled from the most recent git tree. Who will dare asking ?

About the Lxde mailing list, you can read the archives here, if you are interested to take a look:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/foru ... =lxde-list

for example a recent thread about the bug fixes:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/foru ... =lxde-list

[Lxde-list] I just fixed tons of bugs in pcmanfm/libfm
From: PCMan <pcman.tw@gm...> - 2012-05-09 01:10

Hi list,
I just fixed tons of bugs in pcmanfm/libfm this week.
Some patches from the community are applied, too.
Please help test the current code in git to see if it still crashes so
often.
I think things are improved now.
My laptop was broken last two weeks.
Now it's fixed and I can do coding again.
Luckily I got some more spare time this month.
There are still more than 70 bugs, but I'll try to fix as many of them as I
can.
Let's keep marching toward 1.0 stable release.

Isn't that nice ?
The answers pcman received follow on the page of the above link.

Now for djohnston's last words about python and about zram, strange that he lost memory about all which has been said and explained at the forum.

python removal has been one short test with testers on a test version under build. I has never been removed from an official version;
zram has always been easy to deactivate, it is a matter of reverting to the /etc/rc.d/rc.local original file under /etc/rc.d/

the rc.local has received an addition which is easy to see. What is it about several init levels ?
Just rc.local.

I contains this part which can be easyly removed or commented:

Code: Select all

######### ZRAM SWAP ##########

# set to "on" to activate.
ZRAM_SWAP="on"

# If you have several swap devices (or partitions), you may prefer to have
# a higher priority for zram_swap.
ZRAM_SWAP_PRIORITY=30

# Maybe you could use some extra args while loading zram module.
ZRAM_EXTRA_ARGS=""

######## NOTHING TO CHANGE BELOW THIS ##########
if [ $ZRAM_SWAP = "on" ]; then
   modprobe zram $ZRAM_EXTRA_ARGS

   if grep -wq /dev/zram0 /proc/swaps; then
      # Normally, this shouldn't be executed if you don't play with rc.local.
      gprintf "Unloading and reseting zram swap device\n"
      swapoff /dev/zram0
      echo 1 > /sys/block/zram0/reset
   fi
   
   gprintf "Sizing zram swap device\n"

   FREE_MEM=`free -t -m | egrep Mem | awk {'print $2'}`
   # Swap size = 25% of free memory;
   ZRAM_SWAP_SIZE=$(($FREE_MEM/4))
   
   echo $(($ZRAM_SWAP_SIZE * 1024 * 1024)) > /sys/block/zram0/disksize

   gprintf "Activating zram swap device\n"
   mkswap /dev/zram0
   swapon -p $ZRAM_SWAP_PRIORITY /dev/zram0
   success;echo
fi
######### /ZRAM SWAP ##########


######### ZRAM SWAP ########## //isn't it large enough ?


Someone having some skills with bash scripts could even have created a program which could be put in the menus, to activate and deactivate it at will, with the prompt of a root password.

It is to be noticed that the dev of ElementaryOS distribution has provided a script, which has also been ported to Fedora, allowing and easy management of the zram kernel module:
http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/increase ... -with.html

And Openbox standalone versions in pclinuxos are faster than Lxde. Strangely, it is slower than a Lxde version in Sabayon (tried in my T30, everything reacts faster). But Sabayon is not as easy to use as Pclinuxos is, so this is another subject.

One last information about zram, and why it is in the staging directory of the kernel tree, al people using Openbox at PCLinuxOS can be interested about the following information, see the 2 posts I exchanged with the dev of the zram module on his ml:
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/linux ... 00547.html

About the zsmalloc module he talks about in that one post, he sent me this information (not on the ml):

There are still some outstanding issues with zsmalloc which may result
in increased memory usage with zram. Also, it requires more testing for
performance, stability and memory utilization. I think all this should
settle down by kernel 3.5 or 3.6.

I didn't find the zsmalloc module he talked about in any of my installs yet. I think the most recent kernel I have is in Archlinux, it is the 3.3.6 and I don't find zsmalloc here. For this reason I consider using zram with along with xvmalloc is still very safe.

By the way, has anyone looked into his staging directory to see how many modules live there ? You could take a look : /lib/modules/2.6.38.8-pclos3.bfs/kernel/drivers/staging

[sarcastic_bastard]

This is becoming a bigger circus than Australian politics.

[melodie]

This is becoming a bigger circus than Australian politics.

What is Australian politics definition ?



--

$ fortune
Mediocrity finds safety in standardization.
-- Frederick Crane

[knome]

This is becoming a bigger circus than Australian politics.

What is Australian politics definition ?

Democracy with compulsory voting... if you fail to vote you get to fly a trapeze with no net as a punishment.

[Taco.22]

What is Australian politics definition ?

Think "Big Brother" - the TV show, not George Orwell! Appalling behaviour by the inhabitants, and every time you get the chance to vote someone out of the House, they are replaced by someone even worse! A never ending spiral that results in people not caring anymore. If Australian politics was a TV program they would have to pay people to watch

I find French politics far more entertaining

[melodie]

I find French politics far more entertaining

Seen from the other side of the planet, I can suppose so. Seen from here, it's never much surprising, and sadly when it has been it was for the worse. I still hope we could get real good change, unfortunately, there are many people for whom the good changes mean totally opposite things.

[Taco.22]

Just goes to show - politics is politics. Doesn't matter whether it is national politics or distro politics - it never looks quite so good when you are standing at the scene of the crime!

[ka9yhd]

This is becoming a bigger circus than Australian politics.

What is Australian politics definition ?



--

$ fortune
Mediocrity finds safety in standardization.
-- Frederick Crane

Almost as fun to watch as the main forums coming apart.

I started with PClinuxOS with .93 and I have enjoyed the ride until all of the garbage started in the main forums. Ongoto and I have had a discussion about what is going on and I agree with Ongoto.

[djohnston]

Melodie,

Thanks for the email. No, I don't think your post is mean-spirited. You are simply defending yourself. I understand and respect that.

I know you didn't learn to package RPMs. I though you had another packager contributing some unofficial builds. You say you didn't and I believe you. I apologize.

I thought I was going to prove you wrong on the zram run levels. I would have sworn there were scripts called at run level 3 and 5. I spent an hour or two going through my Openbox install from one of your 2011 Bonsai disks. You are right. It is only called in rc.local. Mon Dieu! I was wrong. Again, I apologize.

I have edited my original post. As far as Openbox being faster than LXDE, without any benchmark tests, it's a matter of opinion. If you know of some tests, you could bookmark them. Then, in the future, you could point to them and say, "See! Openbox is 0.285 times faster than LXDE!" I run both desktops on the oldest, slowest machine I have. I honestly can't see any difference between the two.

On Python, I didn't say you deleted Python entirely. What I said was you removed some (pre-existing) Python packages that Texstar considers part of the PCLinux "core". The packages removed did not affect your remaster in any way. Let me make that clear. They only came into play when other packages were added that depended on the missing Python packages. After running into this on three separate occasions, and posting in broken packages, Texstar PMed me and said that each Python package I had reported was part of the "core" package, and were not included in Synaptic dependencies. I'm paraphrasing here, because I don't have the PM any longer. And, I don't know the reason for the missing package dependencies. I do know that he ended up adding the package dependencies, though.

I do understand why you removed them in an effort to slim down the Openbox remasters. In the interest of slimming down the remasters, why not do it? They should be selected for installation as dependencies by Synaptic for any additional packages that need them. I don't know the reasoning or logistics behind all this. I do know that in the year that I've been running a Bonsai desktop, adding extra packages has resulted in missing Python packages on three occasions.

[Taco.22]

djohnson,

Nice to see you edited your post. However it still left it as this -

Hey, Mike,

Okay. I thought it might have something to do with PCManFM.

I know you don't want to hear this. But, it will probably save you some grief in the long run. Please understand, I am not casting any aspersions on someone who is no longer here. I think Melodie meant well, but she failed to follow the tried and true PCLinuxOS "formula" in her quest to slim down the desktop environment. She removed vital python packages.

If it were me, I would start over and install Leiche's 2012.01 LXDE Mini edition. Believe me, you won't use any more resources than you would with the "pure" Openbox desktop. And, man, is it fast! No exaggeration. You'll have the advantage of using a fully supported desktop environment. Openbox is in limbo, right now. The Openbox CDs are no longer listed on the main site. Personally I have had no issues with python in the time that I have run Bonsai as my OS for more than a year now. I wouldn't use anything else - and that is after long and considered thought.

Just remember to install the apt-sources-list package before updating and installing packages.

EDIT: Melodie has informed me she did not add any custom packages. I believe her.

This doesn't cast Melodie in a great light - it still leaves her swinging in the breeze. Anyone coming in cold would think that bad people had been removed - and that she was one of them. You might want to explain to them why Openbox is no longer offered on the main site - or at all. That could be interesting. Personally I have been using Bonsai as my OS of choice for well more than a year - I wouldn't use any other, given the choice - and I have not had any issues regarding Python - even when I built my Blackcat Astronomy edition.

I think an injustice has been done, and it does not reflect well upon the PCLinuxOS community. So where do you go from here?

[melodie]

Hi,
The Openbox Mini "Bonsai" has never been slimmed but built upon a cli iso with the help of many members of the forum, openly, in front of everyone, on the thread which is probably still at the forum and following a process which has lasted not less than 5 month, and was consisting in:
* upload an iso;
* announce it with a description;
* receive feedback;
* modify the "factory install" accordingly to the feedback;
* redo an iso and upload;
* several times this rythm broken by problems from unkown source, among which one was due from a stealthy patch that had been implemented several years ago on a package;

At the end, one problem was still lifted : the installs on usb sticks was not performing the right way as the other isos, but doing something wrong. I used some time to get a full list of packages from Bonsai and from Zen mini, did a sort and a diff with options in order to get an ordered list and looking at some of the packages and descriptions of packages which were present in Zen and not in Bonsai added them, and the usb stick problem was said as solved. Then all declared it good to go. I was bearing an idea, leading a build project, but the ones who really made it as a bunch of people along with me : I will never repeat it enough. I don't have the skills to do it all myself.

My post about this is still here : http://meylodie.wordpress.com/2010/11/2 ... -bonsai-en

One of the great things which occurred while doing this is that we, with other members, had lifted problems which were solved, such as this program which was patched in the official distribution but not patched in the repos, and which brought us to request an update. That was portreserve if I remember well. The problem in Bonsai got solved immediatly after the new version had been made available.

The example related to python is also typical : programs which need a dependency must have it as depend in the spec file. An entire community can't rely just on the knowledge of one developer, or you give it for name Slackware, the KISS distro which almost does not use packages and does not manage depends.

djohnston, I appreciate your present post. At same time I don't just defend myself, but I want to show how I see things.

Openbox is faster than Lxde in PCLinuxOS because it has less components to load. I can't benchmark it because I don't know how to do that. But in a T30 I have, which now has 512 MB ram and still a P4 cpu with 1.86 Ghz, I installed a Sabayon Lxde : and this Sabayon Lxde reveals to be faster than PCLinuxOS Openbox Bonsai ! And if I can't benchmark it I can still say because all applications start so fast I thought my machine is brand new and has a powerful dual core and plenty ram in it : I can see the difference while using it.

I can't say how faster would a full Openbox environment be with Sabayon, because I didn't continue in that direction on that one machine, in that one Sabayon Lxde install. Sabayon does not yet have enough "end user components" to keep me interestedfor the time being, and at least until they finish a Control Center they started to build (which I tested and for which I gave feedback) and the new entropy gui which is in the startblocks. (Rigo). My Archlinux still works wonderfully well, so I already have a non end user distro for everyday, even if Sabayon is very fun to use ! Their Gnome version (with Gnome 3) even have a choice to start with a XBMC session which I visited with curiosity and a great pleasure !

Humm... I can show my Sabayon Gnome 8 with an Openbox only environment.



They have packaged openbox-menu, made available the openbox version from Gentoo with the imlib2 flag enabled at compile... great community !